beatrice_otter: The one thing you can't trade for your heart's desire is your heart. (Heart's desire)
I don't know how I started reading Hockey RPF.  I don't like RPF and know nothing of hockey.  But I did.  And found this: lives to live through seasons by [archiveofourown.org profile] oflights, where babies don't come from sex and growing inside a human, but by being wished for.  If you and your partner wish for a baby, one appears floating down out of the sky in a little basket with the parents' names on it.  (This is apparently not related at all to gender, sex, or sexuality.)  And, if you wish for a baby but have no partner, sometimes (rarely) you get a baby that comes down out of the sky that's just yours!  (No telling whether it's a clone, the story doesn't say.)  Oh, and there are drugs you can take to suppress the wishing, so that wanting a kid doesn't mean one will come out of the sky.

I think this should be A Thing.  The implications and plot possibilities fascinate me; as in ABO universes, I wonder why there is a male/female sex/gender divide.  But in this case, I also wonder why sex exists, because it has no connection to reproduction.  Is it just a fun way to build intimacy?  And if you don't need a sperm and an egg and one person to provide a womb, why is there a sex binary?  And how do wishbabies affect marriage and perceptions on sexuality?  Because while we think marriage is about love, for the vast majority of human history it's been about family continuity and making sure you know whose kid you're raising.  (That is historically one of the big reasons why adultery is a huge deal for women but not for men.)  But with wishbabies, you know who the parents are; they're written down for everyone to see.  How does that affect marriage and gender roles and social perceptions of acceptable sexual behavior?  Promiscuity will not result in unwanted/unplanned babies; celibacy and monogamy are completely divorced from whether or not you have a kid.  Furthermore, there are no unwanted babies.  Babies can only come when they are wanted.  What effect would this have on the amount of child abuse?  There would still be some; just because people want a baby doesn't mean they are mentally fit to take care of one.  But as you can see, there are a whole lot of basic social and cultural assumptions that go right out the window (or get tweaked in odd ways) when you have wishbabies instead of biological reproduction.

If wishbabies were real, would the Shakers (a Christian sect that practiced strict celibacy and so relied solely on converts) have died out?  Would Christianity be so fixated on sex if it wasn't connected to reproduction?

And then I started thinking about fic ideas.  How would this play out in various fandoms?

What about Star Wars?  Obviously, Jedi in the Old Republic meditate about it, and when the child appears they take it to the creche, and that's where most Jedi babies come from.  Anakin was happy to find out Padme was pregnant, but Padme had reservations.  What if the twins aren't Padme's, but only Anakin's?  And he doesn't want them raised in the Jedi Temple, so he wants her to keep them safe for him and when the war's over he's going to retire and take care of them, and then he falls to the Dark Side and when he sees Obi-Wan appear out of Padme's ship what sets him off is that he thinks she gave the babies to Obi-Wan.  And she doesn't die in childbirth, he really does kill her, but in some way he thinks that the kids are gone too.

Agents of SHIELD, what about Ward?  This is cracky, I know, but Ward seemed to really like taking care of Garret.  He liked to be needed.  He depended on him for human connection and the twisted attention Garrett gave him.  Now he's in supermax prison somewhere alone, lots of time to think, and solitary confinement will exactly bring out his abandonment/attachment/affection issues.  HE NEEDS SOMEONE TO TAKE CARE OF!  HE NEEDS SOMEONE TO LOVE HIM!  SOMEONE WHO WILL NOT BETRAY HIM OR ABANDON HIM OR MOCK HIM AS GARRETT DID!  A baby was not what he was expecting, but whatever.  The prison (some top-secret military hole somewhere) lets him keep it because he is a dangerous guy, and having a baby to take care of will reduce the likelihood of him killing a guard and/or escaping.  Dealing with a baby is hard, and it's not like anything he's ever done, and taking care of the baby while he has so much time to think and he's still reeling for Garrett's death and, more importantly, how Garrett dismissed him and mocked him at the end.  So gradually, his thoughts turn from old well-worn paths trained into him by Garrett.  (Maybe the baby is Ward's alone.  Or maybe it was Fitz's, as Fitz kept going over and over Ward's lies in his mind and wondering what caused him to be the way he is and was he always that way and what was he like as a child and wishing he could start over with a mini-Ward, etc., etc.)

What about Star Trek (any version), where Our Heroes come across some weird alien culture where sex and reproduction are linked and babies are grown inside someone's body and not wished out of the sky and they're all weirded out and totally don't get it.

Or reboot Spock, there's a lot of possibilities there.  What if he thinks its his duty to have a child for Vulcan but he doesn't want to (and especially not one with Uhura) because he doesn't want the kid to go through problems like he did?  And he doesn't want to talk about it with Uhura, who wouldn't mind a kid, and there is Angst.  (Maybe there are Vulcan Mind Healers who can go into your mind and make you want a baby, and he goes to one to force the issue because it's his Duty.)

Battlestar Galactica.  What does this do to the Cylon drive to procreate (and their insistence that love has to be part of it)?  What does it do to the Fleet--who would choose to have a baby while being chased by Cylons?  Survival of the human race or not.

Once Upon a Time.  What if Henry is really Emma's and Regina's, biologically?  Regina wished for a baby, and she wanted the other parent to be strong, and cunning, and have some magic, and not be in Storybrooke so the child will be all hers, and so the baby comes and she goes, "great, Emma Swan, not a name I know from either world, this'll be perfect!"  Emma, meanwhile, didn't know about Henry at all.  When Neal abandoned her in prison her longing for family took the form of a longing for someone who couldn't betray her like that, she wanted a child ... but she wanted the child to get everything she never had.  Since no child appears, she figures nothing was going to happen, and once she's out of prison she gets busy doing other things and doesn't even really remember it any more, and then Henry finds her.

Captain America.  I was torn between whether Steve should have a baby with Peggy (after all, menopause is irrelevant to wishbabies, and Steve coming and visiting and talking about the past may stir up old dreams in her) or with Bucky, and coming up with lots of good possibilities for angst and humor either way.  What if he has a wishbaby with both, and is fretting about it because in his day it adultery wasn't having sex with someone other than your partner, it was having wishbabies with more than one person.  He's such a slut!  (This is regardless of the state of his virginity, by the way.)  Then I hit the mother-lode: Steve and Bucky's wishbaby is how they realize Bucky is alive.  Because you can't have a wishbaby with a dead person.  So Steve gets a baby out of the sky and looks at the nameplate and THERE IS JAMES BUCHANNAN "BUCKY" BARNES ON THE NAMEPLATE.  Bucky is alive!  Cue adventures to find him and free him!

Then I realized that you could get a lot of mileage out of "finding out X is alive because a baby shows up."
Howard Stark!  That's why he knew Steve was alive, Tony is actually his and Steve's.  When Tony showed up, Howard realized Steve was alive and rekindled his searches of the arctic.  (Steve was sort of dreaming and hoping for a kid.  Tony is his and Howard's and not his and Peggy's because Peggy moved on with her life and has regrets but isn't spending her time pining, thankyouverymuch.)  Howard doesn't want Tony to become a lab experiment to see if the supersoldier serum breeds true, so he finds a woman who wants his money and position and will swear Tony is hers (without even knowing who the other parent is) and marries her.  Tony doesn't find out the truth until he's a teen (or maybe later?  maybe he finds out after Steve is found and he goes through his Dad's old attic full of all of Steve's stuff that he saved AND THERE IS THE BASKET TONY CAME IN).  Tony's daddy issues then become really different (and so do his interactions with Steve).

Once Upon A Time again.  Gold finds out Belle is alive and in Storybrooke when A WISHBABY ARRIVES THAT IS HIS AND HERS.  He promptly goes nuclear to find her.

Star Wars again.  Obi-Wan sets up shop on Tattooine.  And a couple of years in, he has a wishbaby!  With a Jedi he didn't know was alive!  And he realized, this is how to find out who survived.  He sets out meditating on every Jedi he knows or has ever heard of, and some just generic "wishing for a baby with another Jedi!" thrown in, and finds more than he bargained for.  The kids who are fully Human, he can take care of; but the Empire Does Not Like mixed-species babies (and besides, it would make him conspicuous).  So off they go to Dagobah to Yoda's care because Yoda likes babies, with a couple of dedicated nannies sent by Bail to help take care of them.  And when Luke arrives on Dagobah, he finds a whole Jedi creche there.  How this affects the rest of the movies I don't know; it's easiest if Obi-Wan simply doesn't start wishing for babies until, I dunno, ten years before A New Hope so that they're still kids and thus can't be taking on the Empire yet, and so Yoda knows that when he and Obi-Wan are both gone, they'll need an adult Jedi, and since they've never actually managed to make contact with the other Jedi parents of these babies, Luke is it and thus NEEDS TO BE A JEDI.

Date: 2014-06-05 08:12 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] lilacsigil
lilacsigil: 12 Apostles rocks, text "Rock On" (12 Apostles)
I love this post. I have nothing to add, I just wanted to say that the ends you take this to are awesome.

Date: 2014-06-05 10:29 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
peoriapeoriawhereart: very British officer in sweater (Brigader gets the job done)
Epic!

Though, what's the limit on wishbabies with another 'parent' that isn't wishing them?

*feeds bunny*

Date: 2014-06-06 04:15 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
peoriapeoriawhereart: very British officer in sweater (Brigader gets the job done)
But not required for them to be wishing to have a child with the other parent, as long as they are both wishing? Why would the basket show up at Obi-Wan instead of the other parent?

Date: 2014-06-06 10:46 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
peoriapeoriawhereart: cartoon men (Egon and Peter)
There you go, she's the only one thinking about them both.

I'm thinking of some Modernist revamp of an Annuciation, but with the baby in the place of the angel.

Date: 2014-06-05 08:55 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] rymenhild
rymenhild: A small toddler puppet carrying a bright red letter. (Uzura has a LETTER)
This is awesome. I really like this idea and I hope it catches on more widely.

There are canonical wishbabies in Sherwood Smith's Inda series. In the world where the Inda books take place, women were the first mages, and they set up magic to do what they wanted magic to do: clean up human waste, permit contraception, create children, prevent rape. So there are two routes to baby-having there now. One is through sex, but there are no accidental pregnancies, because nobody gets pregnant without making an active choice to chew an herb that makes them fertile. The other way to pregnancy is for two people, of any combination of sexes, to hold hands and see if the Birth Spell will give them an immediate baby. (The spell doesn't always work.) The baby will be the genetic combination of both parents.

It looks like pregnancy through sex is *more* common than pregnancy through wishbaby in Sartorias-deles, but there are a few Birth Spell cases out there. One woman is asexual but must have an heir with her husband, so she and her husband produce a child through the Birth Spell and she never has to have sex in her life. A pair of women do the Birth Spell because they're madly in love and want to have a child together. (For more information, see the entry under Birth Spell in this glossary).
Edited Date: 2014-06-05 08:55 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-06-06 01:14 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] rymenhild
rymenhild: The legendary Oxford manuscript library. Caption "The world is quiet here." (The world is quiet here)
I realize, rereading my comment, that I wasn't clear. The Birth Spell doesn't induce pregnancy; it provides a healthy child immediately delivered into the parent or parents' arms, which is exactly what you describe above.

One thing I like about Sherwood Smith's worldbuilding is that magic isn't perfect. Although the magic is supposed to make it so that no children are unwanted, ever, it doesn't always turn out that way. The asexual woman and her husband hate each other; they are married for political reasons, and for political reasons they must produce the child. The resulting child is a disappointment to his father, and although his mother loves him, she cannot protect him. Magic tries to smooth the situation over, but there comes a point where magic doesn't fix things.

I do highly recommend the Inda series. The world is fascinating. Gender politics are really complex. Just to start, in Inda's country, men are warriors who go off to battle, and women are warriors who stay home and defend their own castles. Everyone gets married for precise political reasons, but their marriages don't actually affect their sex lives; since no one can get pregnant accidentally, adults can make whatever sexual choices they want. The king is married to the queen, and they have children together, but everyone knows the king's actual life partner is the male captain of his personal guard/messenger corps. And so forth and so on.

Date: 2014-06-06 08:36 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] raspberryhunter
raspberryhunter: (Default)
...okay, wow, you have now sold me on reading this series! (I've tried reading Once a Princess and have never managed to get more than a couple of chapters in; should I retry that one too?)

Date: 2014-06-06 09:42 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] rymenhild
rymenhild: Manuscript page from British Library MS Harley 913 (Default)
I admit I haven't gotten farther than that in Once a Princess either. Go for the adult fiction.

Date: 2014-06-06 01:45 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] lastscorpion
lastscorpion: (Default)
OMG this is such an awesome idea!!!

I thought my favorite bit was Then I hit the mother-lode: Steve and Bucky's wishbaby is how they realize Bucky is alive. Because you can't have a wishbaby with a dead person. So Steve gets a baby out of the sky and looks at the nameplate and THERE IS JAMES BUCHANNAN "BUCKY" BARNES ON THE NAMEPLATE. Bucky is alive! Cue adventures to find him and free him!
, but then everything you did after that just became more and more awesome!!! Yay!!!

Date: 2014-06-06 04:33 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] lastscorpion
lastscorpion: (Default)
Your bunny has a tiara! Yay!!!

Date: 2014-06-06 04:00 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
peoriapeoriawhereart: Steve in khaki, Peggy foreground (Behind Woman)
For the full bore feels, how about a basket shows up at Peggy's (maybe it's the 1950s) but the tag shows Steve Rogers and James Barnes.

The dead can't wish, and yet here is a baby. Cue Peggy pwning everything and not taking names.

Date: 2014-06-06 10:33 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] peoriapeoriawhereart
peoriapeoriawhereart: Steve in khaki, Peggy foreground (Behind Woman)
Well, Steve is in the ice, and Bucky is cycling through cryo and assignments.

Maybe Peggy approached the Vita-Ray chamber too soon. Maybe she's just that fond of a plucky Brooklyn punk and the sniper he went after.

Maybe the baby is the new strategist of a generation.

Date: 2014-06-06 08:17 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] ashen_key
ashen_key: ([tH:DoS] she walks in starlight)
*____________*

This idea IS THE BEST.

Date: 2014-06-06 02:11 pm (UTC)From: [identity profile] notearchiver.livejournal.com
ext_1581797: (Default)
That hockey rpf fic was awesome! I loved it so much. Wish Babies are a necessity in my life now.

Date: 2014-06-06 05:36 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] scheherezhad
scheherezhad: fanart of Bart hugging Siberian Husky!Gar (Default)
Here via metanews. I feel I should include a content warning, before I begin: Comment contains discussion of child loss.

This is a very interesting idea, and I love the scenarios that you have posited. It does make me wonder, if these humans do not give live birth, they are not mammals, so what would they be classified as? And because of issues in my own extended family, I wonder if this is a version of the world in which there is no infertility or miscarriage. If there is infertility, imagine wishing with every fiber of your being for a baby, but one never comes. How would you get a diagnosis? Where would you find support? If there is possibility of something akin to miscarriage, imagine wishing and seeing that basket floating down to you, and you're overjoyed until you see that it is empty. Devastation. Again, where would you find support? How does society treat those whose wishes didn't result in a new life? What kind of mental health services, if any, are available to help deal with such a heavy emotional toll?

Lots of things to ponder, here.

Date: 2014-06-06 09:00 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] raspberryhunter
raspberryhunter: (Default)
*nods* Because of Personal/Family/Friend Issues, this was something that came to mind for me as well. (In my Wishbaby Headcanon, neither of those are Things, because if I get to make up my wishbabies I get to ignore Stuff. But.)

In particular, it occurred to me that stranger adoption is not going to really be a thing in this world. On the other hand, I could imagine family adoption being a lot more prevalent. If someone is infertile, then her partner could make a baby with, say, her sister, much more easily than in our universe... or her parents could even make another baby that could be hers... (Do age-related birth defects happen in this universe? What about age-related infertility?)

Of course, this spirals into interesting territory as well. Do privacy taboos spring up over the nameplates for just this reason? Or over the first viewing of the basket?

It also occurs to me that miscarriage might well be less devastating in a lot of ways in Wishbaby Universe, because in the case of miscarriage, you'd be able to try again immediately, so it might not even be a big deal. If you get an empty basket you just try the wishing thing again five minutes later. Hey, free basket! Infertility would be more devastating in some ways, I think, and less devastating in others; after a day or two of constant wishing you'd probably figure out that nothing was going to happen, which would be a little different from the monthly roller coaster that it is in this universe. But I think it would be harder to see babies constantly appearing out of the sky and know that you couldn't do it.

(Or can you only wish once a month? In which case I guess it would be harder. Still, I'd take multiple miscarriages in Wishbaby Universe to one miscarriage in this one. Assuming you get an empty basket, as you postulate, and not a basket with an unviable one-pound fetus, or something.)

Date: 2014-06-07 02:35 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] raspberryhunter
raspberryhunter: (Default)
Ah, okay. In this case I think miscarriage would still be relatively okay, especially compared to this universe, because it's not like you are going to want a child less after a miscarriage, or if you do then, well, that works out in its own way. But infertility might be even worse, because there would always be the nagging fear of "did I not want it enough? Did my partner not want it enough? And is that why?"

Also, I wonder then if my suggestion of having a baby cross-families (e.g., wife with husband's sibling) would be regarded as infidelity of a sort?

Date: 2014-06-06 08:43 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] raspberryhunter
raspberryhunter: (Default)
Oh man, this is so very interesting!

I wonder if the net effect would be to make human life, especially infant life, less precious. If you knew that you could just replace a baby, with no cost nor pain to yourself... would infanticide-sex-selection be a much bigger thing (especially historically), for instance?

here via metanews

Date: 2014-06-07 03:46 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] sylvaine
sylvaine: Dark-haired person with black eyes & white pupils. (Default)
♥___________♥ I could not agree more with you: wishbabies totally should be thing! A thing the size of A/B/O because omg I want aaaaaaaaaaaaaall the stories that play with this premise.

Date: 2014-06-07 08:03 pm (UTC)From: [personal profile] kiki_miserychic
kiki_miserychic: A Dinosaur and Kate Spade Shoes Fairytale (Default)
LOVE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS

Date: 2014-06-08 02:39 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] mmegaera
mmegaera: (Default)
I don't know if it's the terminology "wish baby" or what, but I can't help thinking, what if the parents think they want a baby, but they realize after it arrives that they don't? Or they change their minds or whatever? That seems to me to be a much more likely situation for child abuse (as it is in the real world) than mental illness (although mental illness can make for awful parenting, too).

Date: 2014-06-09 01:39 am (UTC)From: [personal profile] mmegaera
mmegaera: (Default)
Which does, as you point out, still leave the people who think of children like, I dunno, an accessory or a toy and don't realize that they're a lifetime of work to go with the cute stuff.

I'm thinking of teenagers here, mostly. But if there was a lower age limit on when wishbabies would appear, that might solve at least part of the problem.

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